DEBATE: Some argue that additions are unwise in time of economic distress.

With a class of 37 police recruits poised to begin training in October, the City Council debated Tuesday whether Los Angeles really needs a 10,000-officer force during a financial crisis.

While Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa continues to insist that the nation's second-largest city needs more cops, some council members say hiring civilians could prove a cost-effective alternative to keeping Los Angeles residents safe.

"I think having 10,000 officers is unsustainable for the city," said Councilman Paul Koretz, a member of the council's Public Safety Committee. "It's not a real figure. There are a lot of phantom cops we have who are doing jobs that would be better performed by civilians.

"It's good P.R. to say we have 10,000 cops. But if we had 9,500 cops and the civilians providing support services, we would be better off financially and have no impact on public safety in the city."

Although he wasn't present for the council debate, the mayor stood by his proposal to continue hiring officers despite a $403 million deficit in the city budget.

"I don't want to return to the days when our officers were so badly outnumbered that our police force struggled to keep annual homicides below 1,100, and I don't want to turn back the clock on the great progress we've made," Villaraigosa said.

"Today, Los Angeles is safer - not just because crime is down to historic lows, but because our police force now has the numbers and flexibility it needs to be part of the communities they protect." The mayor also has said he believes it would be a breach in the promise he made to voters four years ago when a trash fee was imposed to generate money to hire more police.

Police Chief Bill Bratton said he was "incredulous" that the City Council continued to debate the issue.

"We made a promise to the voters when we raised the trash fee that it would be used to expand the police force," Bratton said. "And, it has proven to be phenomenally successful."

Over the years, Bratton has continued to press for expansion of the department, saying he believed the LAPD needed to be even larger, perhaps with as many as 12,000 officers.

"Public safety is why we have so many tourists, it is why parents decide to send their children to institutions like USC and UCLA," Bratton said. "Public safety is what makes a city succeed."

The City Council has been divided over hiring recruits for the October class but decided to proceed since applicants had already been accepted. Future classes could be smaller, however, if cost-cutting measures are imposed.

The city's budget problems have been felt particularly on the civilian side of the Los Angeles Police Department, where officials said 55 support positions are being performed by sworn officers.

Money woes also are impacting plans to open the 520-bed Metropolitan Division Jail on Feb. 1. Capt. Clay Farrell told the Police Commission on Tuesday the opening may have to be postponed because of inadequate staffing.

The city has 369 detention officers but needs 81 more to staff the new jail, Farrell said.

The Police Commission has said it does not want to assign sworn officers to detention duty in the jails.

Councilman Dennis Zine asked for a more detailed report on officers performing in civilian jobs.

"We need the support personnel," said Zine, a retired police sergeant. "I don't want to see officers tied up with jobs that civilians can perform.

"We need to have balance in our hiring. Yes, we need more police, but it makes no sense to hire them if we don't have the support staff."

Councilman Bernard Parks, a former LAPD chief who now chairs the Budget and Finance Committee, said it was purely a financial issue.

"It makes no sense to hire new officers when we are asking our officers on the force to take time off to save us money," Parks said. "I don't know where the 10,000 figure came from. It's more a case of how they are assigned.

"We already have 70 percent of our budget devoted to public safety, before we begin looking at furloughs and layoffs. It's time to do what's right. We don't have the money."

Councilman Greig Smith, who has questioned the hiring plan, said he has been doing some research on past city policies.

"I saw a document from 1948 saying we needed to have 10,000 officers, so it's nothing new," said Smith, who is also a reserve police officer. "There is nothing magic about having 10,000 officers."